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Leaving the PermMembers community - Songs of innocence and of experience [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
Douglas Spencer

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Leaving the PermMembers community [Apr. 1st, 2007|10:11 pm]
Douglas Spencer
So I've removed myself from membership of permmembers.

There's a difference between posts like this, fairly standard stuff, well crafted, just balanced on the edge of believability until you read it properly ... and posts like this, which I've described as "inappropriate, offensive, spiteful" and which others have described as "unsubstantiated rumor-mongering and shit-stirring [...] a mean-spirited one that lacks any of the hallmarks of humor".

That latter post was posted by one of the community maintainers.

I'll consider rejoining permmembers if and when it no longer lists adudeabides as a maintainer.

[User Picture]From: flick
2007-04-01 09:17 pm (UTC)
Indeed: I was Not Impressed.
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[User Picture]From: johncoxon
2007-04-02 01:52 am (UTC)
Bollocks. If it was supposed to be AM-only, it'd be called April Fools Morning.
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[User Picture]From: purplecthulhu
2007-04-02 06:58 am (UTC)
It's certainly morning only in France.
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[User Picture]From: rillaith
2007-04-01 09:36 pm (UTC)
Um, am I missing smething? 'Cos at the moment, all I'm thinking is "Woah, total over-reaction!"

Incidentally who decides which time zone April Fools Day is in?
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[User Picture]From: dougs
2007-04-01 10:00 pm (UTC)
I'm at liberty to choose not to associate myself with communities founded and run by spiteful shit-stirrers, and to place on record the reasons for my choices. I'm also at liberty to take a view about which jokes work and which jokes don't.

Other people are at liberty to take a different view. Of course that doesn't translate directly into "missing something".

When the offending post was made, it was 15:15 in adudeabides's timezone, and 12:15 in the timezone where LJ's servers reside. It was 21:15 here. Still before noon in ... umm ... Alaska and Hawaii. And parts of Samoa. So that's about one three-thousandth of the world population.
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[User Picture]From: rillaith
2007-04-02 07:26 am (UTC)
Yes, but "offensive"? "spiteful"? I am really failing to see how someone could apply adjectives to the post as it stood when I posted the above comment. Was it edited? There're no obvious insults, rudeness or nastiness tat I can see. Taken out of context, I'm struggling to understand how you reacted like you have (I'm _not_ questioning your right to react in any way you please nor your right to tell people why), but really, "spiteful shit-stirrer" is not an obvious appelation to someone who isn't a member of the community and reads that one post out of thecontxt of the community.

Hence, "what am I missing?" - how has that post been able to incite such _strong_ reactions in someone that I don't think of as naturally volatile? You posted this in your own journal, where it will be read by more people without community context than with - so I think it was a valid question (if badly phrased!)
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[User Picture]From: dougs
2007-04-02 07:58 am (UTC)
Part of the community context, then: the founder of the community, who has no formal connection to LJ, constantly uses it to imply that LJ's sole purpose in life is to screw over the users in general and the permanent users in particular. The post in news is written by the LJ team against itself, whereas the post in permmembers is written by someone who demonstrates their bitterness constantly, against someone other than himslf.

Hence inappropriate, spiteful, mean-spirited shit-stirring.

It might be helpful to look at the replies to my comment here, and the replies to other comments here and here, to see reactions from some people who are more familiar with community context.
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[User Picture]From: rillaith
2007-04-02 08:15 am (UTC)
See, that first paragraph makes things clear. None of the replies (I read the entire thread yesterday) looked like anything other than overreaction. From a lot of people, yes, but still overreaction.

Thanks for the info, now I understand!
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[User Picture]From: adudeabides
2007-04-02 06:49 pm (UTC)
In my defense of the first paragraph, I have never used the community or my position to slander LJ or accuse them or trying to screw users over. I would challenge dougs to present proof of any such instance. Anyone who knows me -- including the several staff members who're familiar with me -- know that I'm a wholehearted LJ supporter (to the point that I've been accused of being a shill for LJ on several occasions).

So, dougs, I am serious when I ask you to show me these "constant" demonstrations of "bitterness" you allege. And I don't want you to think I'm following you to your journal to harass you, because that's not the case; simply, I'm following up on some of the individuals and concerns expressed by individuals yesterday, which in course led me to this public entry.

And if you'd rather not discuss the issue with me, I suppose that's understandable. However, I do dislike baseless accusations and personal attacks on my character (as most do).
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[User Picture]From: dougs
2007-04-02 07:58 pm (UTC)
I don't believe that to enter into such a discussion would be productive. You've made your position clear in the post to which I originally linked, in your comments to that post, and in the new post to which you've linked today: I've made my position clear in my comment to your original post, and in this post. It's quite clear that neither of us are likely to be persuaded by the other's point of view, and I don't believe there's a sustainable middle ground.

I took your challenge: I decided to go back through the community's archive to see if I could persuade myself that I'd misread your prevailing attitude, and in the first post to the community, entitled "Community Background and Lineage", the first sentence reads "Several LiveJournal-ers with Permanent Accounts decide to band together in an uprising and revolt after suffering grave injustice and loss of benefits". I don't know you, all I can do is infer your attitude from your words, and that is all I have done.

Baseless accusations are distasteful, I'd agree, and I've elected to distance myself from this particular source of them.
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[User Picture]From: adudeabides
2007-04-30 06:31 pm (UTC)
In regards to the first post, that's entirely in jest. Starting the community was largely a joke; poking fun at certain groups of users is no more serious than all the journal feeds that link back upon themselves. The posts since the community's inception would indicate, to most persons, that there is no actual intent to "revolt" after such "grave injustice".

However, while I do not feel discussion would not be productive, since you feel that way it would make such discussion pointless. As you wish. *shrug*
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[User Picture]From: dougs
2007-04-02 07:59 pm (UTC)
I've replied to adudeabides above.
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From: speccygeekgrrl
2007-04-01 10:48 pm (UTC)
How many moderators are there for the community? I think a dumbassed move like that should move them to at least vote on adudeabides's continued moderatorship. Not a funny joke.

Side note, it's a pity every time someone with a clever username puts it to shame. The Dude would probably also not approve.
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[User Picture]From: dougs
2007-04-01 10:58 pm (UTC)
Four maintainers, including adudeabides the original poster, and qfemale who was complicit in continuing the attempt at credibility after the OP had been called on it. The maintainers are listed on the community info page.

Strictly speaking they're maintainers rather than moderators, since individual posts aren't subject to "moderation", or approval before they appear, and therefore the community has no moderators.
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[User Picture]From: watervole
2007-04-02 08:45 am (UTC)
I detest the entire concept of April Fools Day. I'm the kind of person who often fails to spot the joke at all, and when I think of jokes I could play on other people, all I can see is the hurt I would feel if they were tried on me.

I very rarely find any of the 'jokes' to be funny.
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[User Picture]From: peaceful_fox
2007-04-02 10:04 am (UTC)
I agree with you! The only thing I like about the day is some of the clever satire in newspapers and other publications but the whole "play a joke on other people" can just hurt feelings. Besides, good satire can be written any day of the year.
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[User Picture]From: peaceful_fox
2007-04-02 10:07 am (UTC)
Even though I am a perm member, I don't belong to the community. So, I took a look. Yeah, I agree with you. There was nothing funny about the post, nor was it good satire. it was just mean spirited and could only cause discord. :-/
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